Curse

unienaule · Sep 29, 2005, 10:01 AM // 10:01

I've seen people look for another tank when they already have one. "Raise shields, prepare to repel flamers." Er, you weren't supposed to hear that. Anyway, why would anyone ever want more than one tank? Sometimes you don't even need one.

FrogDevourer · Sep 29, 2005, 12:19 PM // 12:19

I guess you're talking about PvE, right?

Many beginners (or poor players) feel more confortable with 2 meat shields. There's also the prevalent belief that the warrior's main role is to deal damage in PvE. Most of the time, quests & missions are much easier to complete with only one defensive tank able to gather mobs in tight groups.

eightyfour-onesevenfive · Sep 29, 2005, 12:39 PM // 12:39

You're right, of course. Sometimes you don't need a tank. You also don't need either a monk or an ele. But having them, or having more than one of them often makes things easier a lot.

Even if the tank does his job like he is supposed to do and no-one else goes in aggro range befor all mobs are focused on him, sometimes mobs will break off the tank and engage the spellcasters, as soon as they start attacking too. With more than one tank this is less likely to happen.

Same thing with every profession. In a good group one healer is usually more than enough. I've been to FoW with my monks with groups where I didn't even have to heal once in many fights. But shit happens. Even the most "professional" players make mistakes or simply have bad luck. That is when having two monks comes in handy.

One Ele deals a lot of damage. Two eles deal a lot of damage x 2. The less long a fight takes, the less risk for every player involved.

But in the end it always depends on the situation and the style of playing of the people involved what you need and what not. I personally take whatever I get. Heck, I've been to FoW in a group of six monks, one ranger and one nuker. It would even almost have worked, with a little more luck and slightly better coordination.

kawaii_bat · Sep 29, 2005, 01:14 PM // 13:14

I beleive (me personally) That tanks are there to keep ennemies in front and prevent them from reaching spellcasters in the back who have less armor and hit points.

By doing this they:

(1) Gather monsters in a bunch for nukers to do their job
(2) Stop monsters from interupting casters
(3) Make themselves better targets for efficient and constant healing rather than running everywhere and taking different amounts of damage at different times
(4) Increase the survival rate for the rest of the party by preventing melee damage on spellcasters.

While I know there are some ranged monsters out there, the melee monsters are usually the ones who hit hardest and should be kept away from the weaker party members.

The best teams uses these tactics and never *ever* away from or towards other members (this causes monsters to change targets).

But I like haveing at least 2 tank in any number of party members, if one dies then the monks can heal the remaining one easier.

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 29, 2005, 02:50 PM // 14:50

You'd be quite surprised at how deadly a tank heavy group in pve can be...

Did some ascesion quests for a guildmate and I got mad when we couldn't kill the foes fast enough with my smiting ranger Beast Master...

So, I had one of my team's tanks pack her farming build and I brought my pvp build... We both ran mark of pain and attacked and hexed 2 different targets in the same mob... Many dead bodies from the enemy's npcs ensued...

With just the single spell that is Mark of Pain, a tank becomes THE damage dealer of a group should the hexed target stay in position...

Alexandria Kotov · Sep 29, 2005, 03:10 PM // 15:10

I have to ring in with my two cents here, as these threads annoy me despite their merit. I'm not saying anyone is wrong in the cases argued here, or that I agree with the dissenters from the original post. My point is that none of this MATTERS.

The person behind the character is the only factor that matters, at all, period. I will take the most one-sided, unbalanced, improper team for an area if THE PLAYER IS GOOD. I'll bet any sum of plat on the planet that at any point in the game, in any aspect of it, pvp, pve, gvg, whatever.... that 8 good players with horrible team synergy will beat the perfect group of classes every single time. Give me 8 monks who're all good players over that magical Healing Monk, Prot Monk, Tank, Anti-Caster, Nuker, Puller, etc group EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Why is it more and more people are beating everything up to and including Thunderhead Keep with Henchmen and guildies, instead of PUG's? Because people suck 99% of the time.

Who here tried a billion times, their first two or three characters, to beat Elona Reach and Thunderhead keep, without success because of bad players. How many times was it a perfect class-grouping?

When I'm forming PUG's for anything, I stipulate that I want team-players, experienced players, and coordination. I never ask for classes of characters. And if I find x/6 or x/8 players who fit that, we beat the mission. Every time. I beat Elona Reach with 3 rangers (no traps), a smiting monk (no healing), a Mesmer/X who did nothing but steal energy (no backfire.... quite a smart little build) and my necro. All under lvl 17, and FAR from an 'ideal' group. So take your two monks, take your 2 nukers, take whatever you want. I'm taking the good players.

And Yukito Kunisaki... You'd be surprised at how deadly an experience heavy group in pve can be....

Patrograd · Sep 29, 2005, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandria Kotov

I I will take the most one-sided, unbalanced, improper team for an area if THE PLAYER IS GOOD. ,,,,,,You'd be surprised at how deadly an experience heavy group in pve can be....

I think this is the wisest thing I have ever read on here with regard to PVE.

To be honest, you are better off by far with henchmen if you cant find some people you can trust for PVE.

IndyCC · Sep 29, 2005, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandria Kotov

Why is it more and more people are beating everything up to and including Thunderhead Keep with Henchmen and guildies, instead of PUG's? Because people suck 99% of the time.

Here, here! I agree. One of the things a professor told me in grad school that sort of stuck with me is, "98% of people in this world suck, your goal is to be specialized in one thing with such extensive knowledge to be part of that 2% that can actually do something."

Slimcea · Sep 29, 2005, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Not to flame the other classes, but the tanks would be infinitely able to do their jobs better if the casters actually gave them pause to round up aggro (especially rangers/eles), and when aggro has been properly caught, not run right smack into the MIDDLE and attempt to cast into it (especially eles).

Ms Sangoma · Sep 29, 2005, 05:10 PM // 17:10

[QUOTE=Alexandria Kotov]The person behind the character is the only factor that matters, at all, period. I will take the most one-sided, unbalanced, improper team for an area if THE PLAYER IS GOOD.

Totally Agreed. I spent days doing Thunderhead Keep with so called "perfect" groups.

Now I pose the question. How do you find a PUG of good players??

IndyCC · Sep 29, 2005, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ms Sangoma

Now I pose the question. How do you find a PUG of good players??

It is a roll of the dice really. So the answer is you don't find one until you get lucky (maybe 1 in 100) and stumble into one. Even if you form your own groups doesn't guarantee anything.

Guizzy · Sep 29, 2005, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Best way to find a PUG of good players is to watch their attitudes. If one player starts screaming go the very second you complete the group, he's not going to help during the mission. He might be a good player and have a good build, but if he's that impatient to start the mission; there are risks that either he will rush his part or that he will leave before the end.

Another good thing to look for is players that ask you to kick other players because they're not the class they want. By all means, be open to suggestions, but you should not look for specific classes; more like roles. For instance, ask for single target damage dealers, not for a Air Ele. Ask for a meat shield, not a Wa/Mo. That way, you are certain the person knows what he is supposed to do. A ranger might offer his help instead of the Air Ele you were expecting, and if he assures you he is a single target damage dealer; get him!

Finally, grammar often makes a difference. Of course, most people don't bother making whole sentences with capitals and periods, and that should not be of much importance for your player choice, but be wary of people who can't speak a whole sentence without 4 or 5 horrible typos. It usually indicates that they are very impatient people that type too fast for their own typing skills.

And finally, this is not a golden rule, but it's generally true once you're past Lion's Arch: you will be able to find better players if you ask for Necros, Rangers and Mesmers. These class have a hard time finding groups (regardless of their skills as a player), so only the more dedicated and good players get to this point. The good Monks, Warriors and (to a lesser extent) elementalists have no problem finding a group, and will most likely already be doing the mission with a group. This leaves the crappy ones in the lobby

Ollj · Sep 29, 2005, 06:37 PM // 18:37

one is already one too much.

Patrograd · Sep 29, 2005, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ms Sangoma

Now I pose the question. How do you find a PUG of good players??

this works for tombs PUGs also (apart from the henchman bit)

Make your own group.

Accept no blind invites

Whisper each prospective member beforehand and make sure that they are the kind of person you want. Who do you want? Well, thats for you to decide.

It will take you a little longer to make the group, but you will get much better results and save alot of time in the meantime. if you cant find enough people, fill the group with henchmen. Henchmen get a bad press, you just need to know how to play with them and protect Alesia

Trust me, after completing the PVe game three times I have concluded that alesia is better than 90% of the monks you will find out there, especially in the later missions when backed up with lina.

Ms Sangoma · Sep 29, 2005, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Agreed. Mehnlo is my boyfriend!

Henchman monks are good, tanks are decent, but Orion.... blah.

Thanks for the suggestions guys!

Alexandria Kotov · Sep 29, 2005, 07:43 PM // 19:43

[QUOTE=Ms Sangoma]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandria Kotov

The person behind the character is the only factor that matters, at all, period. I will take the most one-sided, unbalanced, improper team for an area if THE PLAYER IS GOOD.

Totally Agreed. I spent days doing Thunderhead Keep with so called "perfect" groups.

Now I pose the question. How do you find a PUG of good players??

I actually have a lot of experience at just that, and can supply a few helpful hints. Step one is, of course, being in charge of your group. If you don't form your own group, you cannot control the quality of the player who joins, nor have final say on who gets the boot.

Step two is slightly more complex, the stage wherein you advertise your need for other players to party with. I've found that the best way of doing it is to sell yourself first, and try to buy others second. "An example would be: Experienced Team Player R/Ne looking for a team of like-minded players to beat Elona Reach. PM for invite." Note the "PM for invite" at the end, as you can determine quite a lot from the messages you receive.

The third step is one of the most amusing ones of all. The logic test. Ask everyone in your party what their contribution is going to be (Smiter, Healer, Sniper) and who’s calling. Don’t take anyone who’s desperately overeager to be the caller, who can’t tell you what job function they fulfill, etc. For laughs, ask everyone what weapon they’re using. You probably don’t want anyone who types out their response. Lastly, ensure everyone knows they have enough free time to do the average length of the mission plus change.

And the last major step (As there are many minor steps that common sense, and just being a smart player yourself, will let you determine) is yourself. Organize the team, lay down clear and concise plans, play well, fulfill your own role properly, and enjoy finally beating Thunderhead Keep without losing a single player, let alone the king.

….I should write a bloody guide. But then dumb players would know how to fake their way into solid groups.

Ms Sangoma · Sep 29, 2005, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandria Kotov

Lastly, ensure everyone knows they have enough free time to do the average length of the mission plus change.

LOL. I like this part. People dropping out in the middle really gets to me.

Sound advice. I did however finally beat Keep (and I never want to do it again).

I have done some of these things, but when it is a mission/quest that I am not familiar with, I don't. I would feel rediculous forming a decent group and then saying, "Who knows the mission?".

My new char is a mesmer, I am having a hard enough time trying to find a group at all. I will try your advice and hopefully have a better game playing experience. Really I just want to have fun.

jesh · Sep 30, 2005, 07:20 PM // 19:20

PM me in game, I'm always bored. I'd love to help a mesmer out. Having had a ranger, necro, and mesmer before, I can attest to how descriminate people can be. The 2 eles 2 monks 2 warriors thing pisses me off to no end now.

himkano · Sep 30, 2005, 07:33 PM // 19:33

[quote=Ms Sangoma]LOL. I like this part. People dropping out in the middle really gets to me.

QUOTE]

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that the tank are almost ALWAYS the first people to drop out of a group? I am not bashing warriors, I have a warrior too, but I have been in hundreds of PuGs, and if someone drops out, it is always the warriors first.

I have talked to other people about it, and it seems to be a common situation. I just wonder why that is.

Mavrik · Sep 30, 2005, 07:41 PM // 19:41

So only poor players use tanks? Well I use tanks and I have a tank character... the concept is simple... done right, each character has its own place to fill. Doing so properly means success. Regardless of if I am using my monk or my warrior, or my Ele or ranger... I bring two tanks (henchie) And yes I do some major damage.

the role of the warrior is to aggro a group around itself away from its casters while being healed by the monk... the casters or rangers, then from a safe distance... use their spells on the located group. Personally for me, I do not like wasting my energy on casting into open space because my target left.

Tanks are not only useful, when used properly, can mean success for the team. I've had no problems so far and I wouldn't say I'm a "poor player" either.